Raul.C.1561_8.3.2016_Transcript

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0:01
Samantha Abrams: All right, I am here with Chinar. We are in Memorial Library on the fifth floor, in a study room. It is August, 3, around 10:15, and we will go ahead and start. So the first question I have is just, the first questions are just a little bit about who you are and and what you do at the university, or what you did because you graduated. The very first question is, can you just spell your name and pronounce your name correctly? So we have it on record.

0:33
Chinar Raul: Chinar Raul. C, H, I, N, A, R, and my last name is R, A, U, L.

0:41
Samantha Abrams: Yeah. So like I said the first question, just a little bit about your relationship with the university. I know that you've graduated, but maybe just a bit about what you studied, how long you were here, that kind of stuff.

0:52
Chinar Raul: So I'm from Naperville, Illinois, so I'm not from Wisconsin. I graduated this past spring, and I majored in neurobiology, and I got a certificate in Chicano and Latino Studies. I was also pre med towards the end of my school years. And, yeah.

1:16
Samantha Abrams: And then you said you weren't from Wisconsin. What was it that brought you to the university? Was it like a good program? Was it just, that's just how it happened? Maybe a little bit that?

1:28
Chinar Raul: Yeah, it's actually interesting, because I throughout high school, I was kind of keen on getting out of the Midwest. And I thought that I wouldn't really like to go to a school in the Midwest or apply to many, but I applied to Madison. And it wasn't one of my top choices, but I toured it, because I was like, let's not rule anything out. And when I toured it, I really, really liked it, and like, fell in love with the campus. And my mom thought it was beautiful. And we had, like, toured a bunch of colleges, and at that point to hear, like, my mom say, after at all these colleges that Madison was, like, so beautiful, and like, the curriculum and the sciences are apparently, like, very, very strong here. And I liked the research opportunities, like, there's just so much to do. So I, like, really liked it here. And I came in thinking that I was gonna do either, I was gonna do biochem, I thought. And I know biochem here is, like, very good. But obviously, obviously switched. But I that's what I thought. And, like, that's was really good for that. So that's why I chose to go here. Cool.

2:33
Samantha Abrams: And are you a first generation college student?

2:36
Chinar Raul: Yeah, well, I'm an immigrant. My dad, my parents, went to college in India. And so I guess I always like get confused between the terms "first generation" and "immigrant," to be honest, because I have the experiences of a first generation person, but I'm also an immigrant. So I think I consider myself more of an immigrant than like first generation truly.

2:59
Samantha Abrams: Right. Were you born in Illinois? 

3:02
Chinar Raul: I was born in India, and I lived there for a year. And then we moved to New Zealand, and we lived there for four years. And then we moved to America. So I was really young, definitely. I didn't completely understand what my parents were going through in terms of getting a green card, and when we got naturalized, I got naturalized my junior year of high school. And I guess I never really thought of the significance of that until I, like, got to college, and, yeah, like, I definitely understand more of what my parents went through because of, like, the stuff I did in college and stuff.

3:44
Samantha Abrams: Cool, yeah, so then I guess, just a little bit curious about how your four years at the university went? What, you know, just generally, what your experience was like. Were you a part of any clubs? Were you involved on campus? Just basic things like that.

4:02
Chinar Raul: I did research at the Neurosurgery Department and at the UW Hospital, and that was a big part of my college experience. I was pretty involved with the CLS program, especially my last year. I did, I was mostly, like, involved with research, and that took a lot of my time. This past semester, I also did another research, another independent study for CLS, and it was on bilingualism within a socioeconomic context. I started TheRealUW. My experience at UW has been pretty good. I think that it was, it was definitely a very college experience. It was definitely something that was very transformative as most people's college experiences are. When I came here, I was a totally different person, and I kind of had a narrow view, and never really thought of myself within the greater context of where I fit in or who I am. And those are things seem really corny, and like, I was pretty confident, like, I thought that I knew who I was when I came and just like college. But it was, it really, meeting a lot of people, it definitely, definitely shook me because I was around more diversity than here, definitely, and maybe I'm skipping ahead. But you know, for for most of my life, I just I kind of was juggling this like bicultural thing where I loved my Indian culture and my heritage and the traditions that come from that. And my parents always wanted us to know as much about Indian culture and Indian values as someone like a student in India would. And at the same time, being here in America, it's like, you want to be American and like, adhere to American, quote unquote culture. And that definitely like, that separation, it wasn't as evident to me as I until I came to college. And I just thought, I thought I was American, because I remember when I visited India when I was 10. I didn't really feel like I was like, truly Indian. I felt like a foreigner, even though I was born there, and I feel like a lot of people go through that. And so it was really surprising my freshman year, my one month into college, someone told me that I wasn't as American as them, and it it really it made me really uncomfortable, kind of speechless. And I didn't know what to say. We were all just hanging out, and he said that I was technically American or not as American as him. And I was like, that's not true. I didn't know what to say. Someone else stood up for me at that time, but I feel like if someone said that to me now, I would have a way different response. But I, like, desperately wanted to fit in. Like, everybody wanted wants to, like, freshman year. And what's really hard is that when you're not, so I I have a very diverse group of friends. And it was hard because, like, if you don't hang out predominantly in the Indian group, then people think you're whitewashed. But if you and if you do, then other people think you're "fresh off the boat" or anti social. But if you hang out with, like, when I would hang out with my Caucasian friends or non-Indian friends, they would tell me that "you're not like other Indian people." So no matter where I was, I felt like I was othered and I wasn't like part of a group. And what's really hard, is, I would, like, laugh along, because I felt uncomfortable. I didn't know what to say. And it felt like I was neglecting my own heritage, but also being othered and then typecast it into a niche. And it was like, I saw being Indian as a crutch. Like there were times where I felt like that's all people saw. And it got to the point that like---and I had never felt this way before---like I thought I was, like, culturally/emotionally equipped to go through this stuff. But my freshman year, I like, felt like every day I was just, like, being asked about being Indian or being, like, the, you know, like this poster girl. Like I was supposed to- Like I knew everything about Indian values. Like, I remember when I was in a class, a small class, and the TA mentioned something about arranged marriages in Vietnam or something. Or some remote village that he had went to. And I said, and I didn't say anything. I was just, you know, listening along. But I saw like, four or five people look at me as if I knew what, that I had the biggest idea, or I could speak volumes about it. Which is a very, very big kind of... it's just this kind of a stereotype. You know, you don't actually know much about the culture, but you just assume that everyone's gonna have an arranged marriage, which isn't even true. Like my parents didn't have an arranged marriage, which is a little rare. But it was hard, because I every day, I would feel like, "Is that all people see about me?" And it got to the point that I was like, wow, life would be so much easier if I were white, if I wasn't Indian, if I- like, felt like. I felt like people would accept me more and talk about who I am outside of my Indianness. And what a terrible thing to think. Like, now I look at it and I'm like, I hated being Indian. And it's a beautiful, beautiful culture, and I can't believe I wanted to, like, neglect that. And I, like, resented, you know, the strong bond that I had of my parents. It kind of like, started to dwindle because I felt like I couldn't connect with them because I didn't want to. And it was hard. It was it was hard trying to find my own place in Wisconsin.

10:02
Samantha Abrams: Was this, you know, time for you something that you came face to face with for the first time when you got to the university? Or was it something that you kind of dealt with as your peers got older? You know, I know that high school is weird for everybody.

10:21
Chinar Raul: Right. I think in high school, I mean, there was a little bit of, like, there are a little bit of stereotypes here and there definitely. But you kind of just shrug it off and, like, laugh along. And it makes people uncomfortable, but I didn't feel it as much as I came to college, and it was like every day. I think about race every day. I think about like, who I am like every day. And I think that the that's a good question, because coming to Madison, I had heard it was such a liberal school. And for me, personally, I think a liberal Madison is kind of a progressive montage that was left in the 60s. Just because it's gotten, it's gotten kind of archaic. It's one thing to vote liberally, and it's another thing to be liberal minded. And I think a lot of people here don't get that distinction. And the fact that I have gotten so many comments from people who are quote, unquote "liberal" or, you know, "culturally competent," they don't understand. And I see it all the time, like, but when I was in high school, I felt uncomfortable. When I got to college, like I learned that there were words for fetishizing or making me feel like I was exotic or whatever it was. And now I like, the distinction, and now I know why certain things are problematic. So, I don't know. Maybe it's like with the changing times too. So I couldn't  say, like, what attributed to that. But I can say definitively that it definitely, like my experiences are kind of, I feel like they parallel, just like the history of race relations in America and how abstract they've gotten. Just because I can't pigeonhole my experiences into one, you know, transformative climax that radically altered my ethnic identity. It's mostly, and it sounds cliche, but education really, really is key. I think that a lot of my self understanding came from when I did the CLS certificate, and I just I started taking CLS classes my sophomore year. And when I took, I took a certain class with Tess Arenas my junior year, and that was when I started shaping my like refined worldview, not only as a person of color, but as a woman of color. And until then, I'd never really used those words. And I now know that being American doesn't equate to being white. You know? I know that I hope that upbringing has a big part in how someone views it themselves in like an American Graffiti. I feel like, personally, for me, it was those classes that taught me that a lot of these issues aren't just separate, they're intersectional. And that, like, shaped how we did TheRealUW.

13:19
Samantha Abrams: Yeah, I mean, so I feel like you're getting there a little bit. But so this past semester on campus, and even the past year on campus, there's been an uptick---well, from my perspective, which is the perspective of a white graduate student. So I could be totally wrong, and I probably am, but it seems to me that there's been this uptick in these hate and bias incidents, in vocalized racism. Did you notice a shift at all from your first few semesters on campus to this most recent semester? Or has your experience, was it not really that in flux? Was it just kind of a consistent?

14:04
Chinar Raul: Definitely. I think there was a huge shift. People my sophomore year, we would all talk about how, you know, these things happened, and the shootings in the nation. My feelings towards the university didn't change, but my feelings that I had initially in college, they just became more prominent, if that makes sense. I just feel like the current climate reflected what was going on regionally and nationally, because I think marginalization- Racism and marginalization are not only national problems, but regional problems. And UW is a microcosm, and the fact that we don't live in a post-racial society definitely made people just react to that in different ways. And sophomore year, we would talk about how revolution or change is gonna happen, but it'll happen slowly .But then, within two short years, things just went, just got bigger. You know, we had I remember I participated in protests before, but I had never really thought that I would actually be leading one. Not a protest as much like a movement on my own, or not on my own, but with, like, my group. But, yeah, I don't know. I just I didn't expect that. And it definitely did shift a lot. Like, I definitely got more... As I got more educated, I feel too, I think I became more into the dialog and into the fabric of like what was going on, and that's, I think that was similar to a lot of people's experiences.

15:48
Samantha Abrams: And so in about, maybe it was earlier than March or April, TheRealUW starts to emerge. Students of color starting to share stories on Twitter and on Facebook about what the university is to them. And I'm curious to know how the emergence of that hashtag and that that movement; how it made you feel, and what what having almost like a title or a label to kind of rally behind made you feel. From my perspective, it almost kind of put a name on this whole thing, like, this movement is TheRealUW, and how did that make you feel? And how did that impact you when you first-? 

16:40
Chinar Raul: It's very poignant. Because when we first started it, we started it in our class with Revel Sims. And we were modeling our campaign off of the I Too Am Harvard campaign. And timing is just so interesting, because at the at first, we were going to use the hashtag OurUW. And we'd come up with this like organically, because we wanted to present the experiences as a reality that people of color and marginalized identities face on this campus, their campus, and these are the realities of OurUW. Excuse me. And then the second thing is, we also wanted to use it as a vehicle to reclaim space and identity. So it's a way to reclaim Our campus by showing that we're here too and we belong. And this aspect was key to our class, which is Latino Urbanism. And we really, like, we began the project brainstorming sort of identity struggles that we all shared and experienced, something that was common between all of us. We talked about feeling like outsiders and the offensive comments we had received from fellow students, and we questioned- Like, and it made us question our presence on campus, definitely. And like I mentioned earlier, and in our class, we learned about the institutions and the policies and systems that have historically undermined marginalized communities, and this comes back to the regional problem. So microaggressions are manifestations of those divisions and created by the bigger system, and they kind of perpetuate the cycle of oppression. And we think that microaggressions, the problem with it is that people... It's so overt, so people don't actually know, they think that it's not actually racist. But it's it's seeped underlyingly in racism or like, in some sort of marginalization, which isn't okay. And so when we were gonna start doing OurUW, that's when TheRealUW and UWSnub started coming out. And we were like, well, we don't want to, we don't want to confuse the message here. We want to collaborate. We want to make it, like, a wholesome movement. So we reached out to people if they wanted to collaborate or what we should do. And the initial planning process was definitely hard. But we ended up changing our name to TheRealUW, a visual campaign, because there wasn't a visual medium to the whole campaign yet. There were stories, and there were, you know, like you said, tweets and statuses. And a lot of people were definitely using social media, but we finally put a visual aspect to it, which was definitely pervasive. And that's like, kind of how it started. And it just, you know, it blew up. We thought that social media would be the best way to show our project, and we felt that we could reach a lot of people quickly. Something that I mentioned in an interview before was how Arab Spring kind of started everyone you know, got everyone to think about how social media is so pervasive to our dialog and to change, and this is our like Wisco Spring using TheRealUW and posting pictures, because people not only saw what was said, but could see the person that it was said to. And that's just that, if you look at the comments too, like it definitely changes and shifts like how people view the project and view the things that are being said. And it definitely like, within two hours of launching our page, we had over 1000 views, and we launched it at like 10 o'clock at night. So it was pretty, it was pretty- We did not see the surge in popularity, and it definitely came with many obstacles, and we thought that we had we learned a lot about the process and managing, but yeah, it was. It's been crazy. 

20:45
Samantha Abrams: How do you, and this is it kind of yourself a little, but you mentioned, like, the role of social media. And I guess I'm curious to maybe hear your thoughts a little more. Social media seems like it's an empowering tool to kind of get people to listen to these stories and these truths and, yeah, I mean, if you could talk a little bit about maybe what that means to you.

21:17
Chinar Raul: We're all on, most of us are on social media. More than less are in are on social media in some form. And everybody was seeing, I think, like, or most people were seeing, you know, the like, little statuses and comments and things like that. But it really pushed it in people's faces, I think when we put the pictures out. And the reason why social media is so big, is we live in an information age. We live in a digital age. Everyone's always on their phones. We're constantly connected. And Facebook is definitely something in our generation, especially not as much. I think younger generations are switching to other modes of social media, but in our generation, and a few older than us, everyone's on Facebook. And that's like, what everyone looks at and everyone- The thing about Facebook is it's just such a great way for a picture, comments, the likes. The whole thing ties together. And not only that, what makes it different from like Instagram or anything else is we could post things as TheRealUW as well, so on the page. And we could have, you know, an about and talk about, like, what we do and stuff. And right now, social media is a great way to just implement change. Not quickly, but like, really, get it to people quickly, because, like, people see it, and that's what's so important. And we know you when you're scrolling and people are so quick on their phones, that they don't want to just not everyone is going to be looking. If we followed old models of activism, older models, we can, and that's fine. But it's not as momentous, I guess. I don't know if that's the word, but it's not as like in your face, or it's not as pervasive as doing it on social media.

23:20
Samantha Abrams: Yeah. I mean, that makes them, makes a lot of sense. And TheRealUW, I would say, it was mostly on social media. And there were certainly aspects of it that were, you know, like a walkout or the art exhibit at the Chazen Art Museum. But yeah, I mean, where I saw it was on social media. And I guess, kind of doubling back just a little bit, and you can relate this to social media, if you'd like. But I'm curious about comments that have been said to you, or, and you talked a little bit about this. About, you know, these moments in class where people would look at you, or, you know, moments like  this past semester, even. Have you been on the receiving end of, just like this, blatant racism and microaggressions. And if you feel comfortable talking about that?

24:27
Chinar Raul: Yeah. A lot of time, I get a lot of microaggressions. It's become so commonplace that I just don't even think anymore. I just think it's part of living here, which is really sad. And I think that that's the thing about microaggressions. They become manifested, and they make people feel like unwelcome, and it becomes a psychological thing. And because it becomes normalized, it becomes a culture. In terms of blatant racism, yeah, I have. Whether it be a joke or something supposed, I don't think it's funny. But, or, you know, someone yelling something on the street. It's, it's definitely, it's definitely been something that has happened to me. And sometimes it's not even the right marginalization. When I was walking with a friend, showing him him our campus a couple months ago, I was walking in broad daylight on Observatory, and I heard, like incoherent, kind of like yelling or some voices. And I turn and this dingy truck with these two men, this guy, like, sticks his head out, and he said, "What the fuck are you looking at?" And I was, like, instantly, like, kind of scared. I got scared, and he stopped. They stopped at the stop sign. I don't want to get super political, but, you know, he had a Trump sticker on the back of his truck. And he stopped, and they wouldn't go, and it started freaking me out. I couldn't even, like, hear my friend, because this is, like, the reality that people live in. It's campus, and I felt unsafe. But they drove away, and then I was like, "It's okay, you know, it'll be fine." We went on our way, and I kept, you know, on Observatory, and I was showing him campus. And we were by Liz Waters when the car came back and yelled, they yelled "spic" at me, which is a derogatory term, which isn't even, I'm not Latina, but that's what I'm talking about. People make these assumptions based on your race, and that's not okay. It made me feel incredibly unsafe, and at that moment, I was starting to sweat and, like, get anxious. And I'm usually not a super anxious person, but I was like, let's just go back to my apartment. I started kind of, I got pretty scared and, and that's the reality of a lot of people. You know, they get that sort of treatment so often, and it's ridiculous. People are afraid to go out, you know? And this was in broad daylight. I mean, if people think these things happen only at night or whatever, you know, when no one's around. But no, these things happen with just, there are people going around making it. I don't understand that's the biggest thing. I don't understand about the hate. I don't understand why there's so much hate and that like, how much deep rooted it goes. And it definitely like, slapped me in the face. That incident is, like, is the most recent one that I can remember. But yeah, I would, I would get comments about being Indian and stereotypes about it, and it was hard. And while I don't think there is a hierarchy of oppression, I do think that I didn't have it as bad as a lot of my classmates. But I think a lot of people also forget that marginalization, like I said, is intersectional. And besides my race, like, I would definitely get comments about, like my sexuality. Or not my sexuality---I'm straight---but my gender, I should say. Being female, it was definitely like, that's definitely something that in a college campus, like victim blaming and slut shaming. That was my first taste- That was another thing, freshman year. I was wearing, it shouldn't even matter what I was wearing, right? And I was wearing, like, a tank top or something like that, and like, this blouse that was a little see through. But it wasn't anything that was like- Like I said, I shouldn't even have to defend what I was wearing! But somebody came up and told me, they're like, "You're a slut." And I instantly was like, what? Like at that time, I was afraid of boys, okay. Like, if that gives you any indication, I was afraid of, like, any sort of thing like that. And I was kind of a prude. And I think that it was definitely like, very surprising, and very like, I had no response to it. I was so offended, though. And after that moment, like, in college, I phased out the word slut. It's not even part of my vernacular. I don't say that word at all. Because I think it's like gibberish. I don't think there's a such thing. And I think that a lot of seeing what my friends, my other friends who are girls, went through, and then what I went through, just like, totally unabashedly, like, for no reason, people are saying this to me, and are thinking this about me. And that's not okay. Because I can do whatever I want with my body. But the fact that there was like this virgin-whore dichotomy that totally existed and that so many women go through, I had friends who were sexually assaulted in college and having to hear their experiences, and just like, people say, "you should step up and talk to someone," but it's really hard, you know. The fact that you feel so ostracized, and those issues all go hand in hand. And being a woman, being Indian, a lot of these things like, definitely, are just parts of what I went through, and what makes me me. And people were very direct, if they weren't over, sometimes. And it's just, you don't know what to say sometimes.

30:26
Samantha Abrams: Do you, and I don't know how involved you are with the general Madison community beyond campus, but have you noticed that it is more prevalent on on campus than off campus, or when you're at home in a community that you grew up in?

30:45
Chinar Raul: Personally, I've never really gone off campus, or I haven't spent enough time off campus to know. On campus, there's definitely a lot of incidents. When I go back home, I don't feel it as much. My community is pretty, like, it's, I don't know. I think that, my high school was, like.it there were a lot of white people, there are a lot of black people, there are a lot of Indians and Asians. And it was, I mean, my suburb is pretty upper middle class, and it was actually kind of diverse, and more diverse than here. People had seen an Indian person. You know, I wasn't. A lot of people were like, Chinar, you're my first Indian friend here in Wisconsin. And that was very surprising to me, because I came from a place where I think a lot of people knew a lot of other people of color. So no, I don't know. I couldn't say.

31:42
Samantha Abrams: So when, like, the incident with the two men in the truck happened, or, you know, if you're on the receiving end of something in a dorm room, do you view it as the university's responsibility to step up and reprimand or punish or discipline these individuals? Or, do you kind of think that the responsibility belongs to someone else, especially when it's happening on Observatory drive or, you know, at the library?

32:16
Chinar Raul: You know, that's a very multifaceted question, because at the time that it happened, I wasn't thinking about the university stepping in and doing something. I didn't think it was the university's fault. I thought it was like really a general ignorance from the masses. But I think the university is scrambling to find a solution to the problem, because these incidents are getting more and more common, and I think that it's every, it's on all of us. And I think that for the university, the biggest thing that they can do is implement actual changes, not like training programs, because those are not doing anything for anyone. But like classes designed to like, small group classes that people have to take freshman year, led by someone who is culturally competent. I think those universities should put out a measure like that. You know, like I said, education, as corny as it sounds, is the answer to a lot of things. People don't know they're misinformed until they're misinformed, you know. They don't know that they're living with, like, this ignorance, and they think that they know everything, and it's not okay. And the school should definitely, like, should definitely not get rid of like the ethnic studies. And I know they're consolidating the ethnic studies, and that was a big part of a lot of the interviews that I did through TheRealUW. And I think that that us doing this visual campaign definitely made them realize more. I think that defunding programs like that are is so counterproductive, and it's not going to help the situation at all. People are coming in ignorant in college, and this is the time to change, you know, how you think and things like that. And when I talk about this, I think that the school---I always mention that, you know, I know that they're putting in different diversity measures this next year and stuff, but I think the biggest thing that they could do is, have a mandatory class where it's not, they don't call it "diversity" or something. Because I know people who hear things like that, and immediately want to shut their brain off and just think the way they think. And I think we should facilitate discussion and have open discussion, because that's the thing we've gone so long thinking these things are taboo. Talking about sexuality and race and things like that. People think it's so taboo, and that's like, how about we change that dialog? You know, talking openly and discussing about things and having conversations is such a great way to make people like, having open dialog is such a great way to have people change their mindset, or, like, understand more. That's like what happened through TheRealUW. Doing this visual campaign friends who I personally knew felt so uncomfortable talking about certain topics, all of a sudden, could express, like, how they felt, and they could they could say, ask me, like, why they think, or is what I think wrong? Why is it problematic, you know, or like, say what they said, and then I, you know, in a non patronizing, in a non like condemning way, like, discuss and talk about it. Because people just don't know. And now, I think that's the biggest success for me personally, was that people who I knew felt uncomfortable talking about certain things could finally talk about things and ask questions. And if we could do that in a classroom and, like, through education, you know, like, actually, really get it through, like, an hour long discussion, like once a week, or something about it. Because doing this, it was heavy, like listening to people's stories. It was, it got really, like, emotionally exhausting. It was really hard when someone- Because, not only would people write on the board, we would ask them about their story, and we would, we would glean, like, how they felt. And it was harrowing at times, it was hard. And I think that more people need to hear that, and more people need to know why things are problematic and why safe spaces are important. And that's like, discussion and education are the best ways to breaking those boundaries that we had that we've, like, put up between groups.

36:47
Samantha Abrams: And so you took, I guess- At the university now there's just like, you have to take three credits, one class of Ethnic Studies, yes, and you took more than that. 

36:59
Chinar Raul: It's funny, because freshman year I actually took, like, kind of a joke class. I took Folklore, which really didn't feed into ethnic studies. Or, like, you know, in the truest sense, it wasn't exactly... It was Folklore I just took it because I needed to get rid of ethnic studies that 

Samantha Abrams
I heard that you could take a language class.

Chinar Raul
Yeah, yeah. I think so too. Yeah. And, like, because a lot of them double or, like, overlap. So it was really funny, because then when I did the CLS certificate, I was like, people need to take these classes, these are the sort of classes! And it's great because I even, like, one of my friends said that he took an Intro to CLS class, and he was like, and he mentions it, he's like, "Yeah, I took that. And it, like, definitely changed my mind on a lot of things." See, even one class like that makes a big difference. And people undermine it as something that they just need to take. But it's so important. It's so important for a place like Wisconsin too. 

37:58
Samantha Abrams: Right. And so in this class with Revel Sims, it was Latino Urbanism, you guys did TheRealUW project, and as I understand it, it was smaller class that was split into two groups. And then you guys did, like your group, did TheRealUW visual campaign, and another group did interviews, it sounds like?

38:22
Chinar Raul: Yeah.

38:25
Samantha Abrams: I mean, I would love to talk about, kind of how the visual campaign got started in that class, and just a little bit about that. 

38:38
Chinar Raul: Yeah. So we broke into two groups and kind of generally talked about what we wanted to do. We said that we wanted to do, like, a social experiment. We talked about how cool it would be if we did YouTube videos and stuff. And we talked about just a lot of different facets of it. And when a lot of these incidents started happening, a lot of us were just perplexed about where we should go or we should do. And Regina Stieber actually was like, "Well, remember the I Too Am Harvard campaign?" And a lot of us had seen it, and we thought, well, this would be pretty great if we did that in UW, you know, but we don't want to do I Too Am UW, we wanted to have our own project. So the planning process took a lot of time, which is why other hashtags and other things came up before us. We knew there was a Tumblr page where people try to do like an I Too Am UW kind of thing, but we made ours a lot more directed, I think. We have more organization in the terms that, in the sense that we... We did TheRealUW because of other hashtags that had already happened, and we didn't want to confuse everyone with a different hashtag. So we used TheRealUW. And we started planning. We were like, "How are we going to take pictures? We're going to have a camera, we're going to a board, we're going to ask people." We first started saying that we wanted race to be a thing, but then we really thought about a lot of the incidents that do happen, and we thought that, no. People, all people, go through a lot of stuff, you know. Not just race. There's a lot of stuff that people feel marginalized about. And we then said, "No, let's do all sorts of like marginalization, all sorts of identities"---which is what makes us different from a lot of the other facets of TheRealUW. We talk about people... We also brought in allies, you know. So we definitely talk to people who, because not everyone is racist or sexist or whatever, you know. And like, there are definitely people who support the cause and the movement, and they wanted to, you know, stand in solidarity. So we definitely, as the project went on, we were like, "Yeah, we should, of course, include allies, because we need allies," you know. We all had a very integrative method to seeing things. It was very MLK, and I think that what happened from there is when we started playing. So this was, like, right before spring break, so more things were happening, and we were like, "Should we start it now? Should we start it later?" And then one day, we just went out and we like, were like, "Let's take pictures." And we did, and they came out really great. We posted three just to see on our event page. So we started an event where we explained what we were doing and everything. We had a survey. So not only were we doing qualitative data, we were also doing quantitative data. So through the Qualtrics survey, people could take it and answer certain questions. And Jasmine was in charge of that and did a lot of the statistics with that. And we found out who was taking our survey and where they felt the most microaggressions. So then from there, we would put out little dates and times where we would be on Library Mall, or if we would be on in the CLS gatherings, and we would take pictures of people. And people would come by, or we would stop people who were like, walking by, and we took anyone who was a student. And so we took grad students too, and we would, like, take their pictures and ask for their stories. Or some people would walk by and like, just ask what we were doing. And I was also surprising how many people, like, walked by and were kind of offensive or rude and just not very productive. But at the end of it all, we culminated it all. We made that album and the first set of pictures we put out, really, just like, got everyone going, you know. And like, I remember the next day, we all liked it. It was a big discussion. Like, I heard it a lot. And I heard about it a lot as well. And it definitely, I think, I would like to think that the campus, the school, definitely felt a little pressure from it too. It's one thing, like, art is such a pervasive medium, and that was one of our biggest things for doing it, is people could see visually what was like happening and like they could see the person behind the words, and they could see that it was on campus. You know, the Capitol's in the back,  Bascom Hill's in the back. It was, you know, very real that people hold  this baggage and walk around. Your peers feel this way. So why make it an environment like that? Why make it an unsafe environment? So then we posted our second set of pictures, and that's when we started formulating. We made a website, actually. We haven't put it out yet, but we had made it a couple months ago. And we took a sample of the statistics from the Facebook page. So who was looking at our Facebook page, what age groups, all that stuff. We looked at like, all these different things, and kind of figured why there are trends, why it's happening the way it's happening. And we kind of reflected upon like, the whole process and just how, like, how it was, you know, a lot of us had participated in the protests, but how it was behind the scenes, working with other groups and collaborating. And how activism is very... it's not just "I'm going to do this." Community organizing is very hard. So that was the whole process, in a nutshell. Does that answer your question?

44:39
Samantha Abrams: Yeah, yeah. And so just to summarize it, so you guys, it was a group of eight of you, right? You guys had a whiteboard that was like the size of, I don't know-?

Chinar Raul: It was kind of the size of my laptop.

Samantha Abrams: Laptop size 

Chinar Raul: Like, yeah. 13 inches.

Samantha Abrams: And you had people write down microaggressions and incidences, I don't know the word.

45:07
Chinar Raul: The word we would, we would like, we would say "microaggressions," but sometimes people didn't know what that meant, and sometimes we get some blatant, just like, really straightforward comments that people have gotten. And that's the other thing we started. We started thinking like, "At what point does a microaggression just become a straight up aggression?" Because a lot of times that's just what happened. People were like, it was, it was like, hard, because it was sifting through things, certain things that happened to people. We also wanted it to be concise, like, a statement that was said to someone or something like that. Or like, you know, ally statements were statements, but sometimes, mostly, we're looking for quotes, like things that someone said to someone.

45:49
Samantha Abrams: And so you would take, they would write in, and you would take their picture. And did the group ever receive contact from anybody in an official capacity, from the university? So did anybody reach out and say, like, "We see what you're doing, we would like to talk about it," or was it kind of something where, like, you know, they saw it, but you didn't really get a lot of feedback from them?

46:18
Chinar Raul: More the latter, yeah, actually. I'm sure the university saw it, but no one actually really said anything about it. It was referenced kind of overtly, I remember, in graduation. Like it was definitely kind of touched upon. Like. not very. it was kind of subtly. A student speaker brought it up. And they definitely saw it, but they didn't reach out to us. I remember I talked to Lori Berquam once or twice So she knew who I was, that we did it. But no one from their side.

47:03
Samantha Abrams: And I know you can't speak for the rest of your group, but were you hoping that somebody in an official capacity, be it somebody from like the Multicultural Student Center or the chief diversity officer, were you hoping that somebody would say, like, "We see what you're doing, and this is a problem, and thank you for bringing it to light?" 

47:26
Chinar Raul: We got a lot of people, a lot of news stations reached out to us. And like Regina and I did an interview with WPR, Wisconsin Public Radio, and we did interviews on news channels. But I guess I wasn't really looking at that as much, personally. My mindset doing it was, "I'm just kind of doing the right thing," like this is what needs to be out there. People need to know this, and whatever's gonna happen is gonna happen. I had zero expectations. I didn't think this was gonna be a thing that people were going to remember and think of. It's not to say that I had, like, really low expectations or anything, but I just never, I didn't think I was going to get the response that it did. And I wasn't even thinking about the school at that time. I was just thinking of the students, because that's what mostly I wanted it personally, I wanted the students to see what was happening.

48:18
Samantha Abrams: Did you receive any- So while TheRealUW was happening, similar movements and moments were happening on other campuses I know, at like Clemson University, there was a hashtag, I think, #beingblackatclemson. At the University of Iowa, there was a similar movement. Did you guys receive any either comments or support or contact from other students? 

48:53
Chinar Raul: Yeah. I had heard someone in Beloit wanted to do it, and I heard in Milwaukee, I think they also wanted to do it, or they were talking with people in our group. That's about all I know. It's interesting, because a lot of- I think someone in a college in Pennsylvania, a professor, asked if she could use our images. And it was just, it's interesting. A lot of people, modeled it a lot, did a lot of their did some school projects on it. And that's, as far as I know, I'm not sure. I know that the reach has, like, it's reached a lot of people across the US, but that's about it. It's not like, it hasn't been overwhelming. Be we definitely did, there were a lot of people did reach out from different schools. And it was awesome, because a lot of people really wanted to help, too. You know, like, a lot of people were like, "I would really like to get involved. If you could, like, let us know," or, like, if you have a website or something. It was pretty great. 

49:52
Samantha Abrams: That's cool. How do you think doing the visual campaign, I guess, it's a two part question you kind of talked a little bit about what it did for you and how it kind of changed your perspective. What do you think it did for people who participated, you know, did they feel a sense that they were being heard, maybe? Or-?

50:14
Chinar Raul: I think so. You know, I really do think so. I think a lot of people, people who stepped up and like, did it were very brave, and I commend them completely for being on a public platform, putting their face out there to a bunch of strangers. And those comments, some of those comments were heinous. They were so mean. There were a lot of good comments, but there are also just so many hateful comments. But it was also great to see so many people, you know, be so supportive, too. I think the people who didn't, I can't speak for everyone, but I know a lot of people were proud that they did it, and happy that they could lend a voice, and happy that they could, you know, be in some way, a little bit of a change. And be part of, like a little bit of the change so.

51:12
Samantha Abrams: So kind of, I guess, pulling all the threads together and wrapping up, do you get the sense-? So a lot of this started happening in March and April, and then summer came, and students do what students do, which is they go home, or they do internships, or they travel. And as far as I'm aware, there's not the similar momentum this summer. I guess I'm curious to see and you're great. You've graduated. But do you think that this is something that will pick back up when the fall semester starts going a different direction? 

51:55
Chinar Raul: Yeah no, we've definitely talked about that in my group too. We've talked about, Should we keep it going? What should we do? Is this it? It's still kind of up in the air, I think, but we're definitely, we'll definitely use it as a platform to speak again and get the word out there. But I think, most importantly, I think it's kind of it, kind of, as Revel said, "We struck while the iron was hot." And no doubt there will be a lot of movement. There will be more movements, I'm sure, these coming years and this next year. And I don't think like, voices are quieted at all. Like, I think a lot of people are going to come back with the same fervor to, like, do something. I don't know about this campaign. I think we're probably done taking pictures, you know. It was definitely something that was what was going on at that certain time. You know, it's not something that is just gonna keep happening, I think. Or, like, the picture taking, I mean. But I don't know, like, I have graduated. But they could easily, like, keep going on with it. So I don't know. It all depends. I think that, I think that when people, when students, come back, though, well that's when we'll see again. Like, when we're all, like, together again. We'll see what happens, and we'll see the diversity measures that the school is taking. Like. we'll see how the cultural competency programs pan out. We'll see if, like, the incidents lessen, because everything's kind of quiet now, but we'll see in the fall.

53:33
Samantha Abrams: Well, I don't have any other questions specifically for you. Is there anything else that you just kind of would like to say, either about your involvement with the visual campaign or your time as a student on campus now that you've you graduated in May, and it's now August? Is there, I mean, has distance provided you any kind of like, "oh, I learned this."

54:02
Chinar Raul: I think that I have done a little bit of reflecting, and I think that you don't really know yet you're going through something, until after it happens, I think, I think that I didn't know why I was feeling the way that I was feeling my freshman and sophomore year, and I couldn't put, like, a term on it. I didn't even know I was changing. And I had, like, this emerging identity sort of thing. And it's been amazing. Like, I look back and I'm like, wow, I didn't think that I was gonna change in this way. I didn't think I was gonna actually get involved with activism. And it's definitely changed my idea of what I want to do, and I definitely keep up with it. I'm definitely somebody who feels like, I definitely feel like I should be in this line of, you know, implementing change and stuff. And I just like, think about how much I've learned, and like, how much I can back up how I feel. So if somebody said what they said to me freshman year, I don't think I would be quiet. And that's, like, the biggest thing. And like, I said, like, I definitely really embraced having two cultures and finding a middle ground. And it's pretty, it was awesome. And I embrace that dichotomy. So I don't know. I'm very grateful to have the experience that I did. It was hard, but I'm, like, really happy, and I loved, like, going here. That's all.

55:31
Samantha Abrams: cool. Well, awesome. It is 11:10 and we're gonna go ahead and wrap up. So thanks for doing this. 

Chinar Raul: Yeah, of course

Transcribed by https://otter.ai