Wildman.J.487_1994_Transcript

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0:03
Chad Lauber: There we go. This is an interview with Joan Wildman for the Wisconsin Oral History Archives, and I was just going to start with a little bit of your personal history. Now, how was it that you came to the piano?

0:18
Joan Wildman: My parents had an old pump organ in the house that they had gotten from my grandparents. And so it was one of the things that I would do when I was a child, just to go play it. And my mother would pump the organ with her feet, and I would play little sounds, and it was a lot of fun.

0:39
Chad Lauber: Wow, really? So, I mean, you actually started on the organ and not on the piano?

0:43
Joan Wildman: Yes, when I was very, very little. 

0:46
Chad Lauber: And then what was your early training like when you were a child, or when you were a teenager?

0:51
Joan Wildman: I took piano lessons from the local piano teacher in town. It was a very small town in the middle of Nebraska, and so I took piano lessons on every Saturday for years. 

1:04
Chad Lauber: Oh wow. And what music then was influential on your early development?

1:11
Joan Wildman: Probably the radio was the most influential thing. And some of the things that I would listen to then were clear-channel radio stations from Arkansas and Louisiana and far away places from Nebraska, which featured blues, rhythm and blues, and some jazz as well. 

1:33
Chad Lauber: Really? Like which artists? 

1:46
Joan Wildman: Well, there were people like Howlin' Wolf. BB King, of course, too, later on. And just some of the Black Sunday night shows, which featured just church services with some of the singers who were in the church.

2:00
Chad Lauber: Oh, wow, that's pretty, fairly interesting. So where--you attended a high school in Nebraska, near Lincoln, or which was--?

2:10
Joan Wildman: No, it's not near anything. It's out in the prairies. Literally, it is, yeah. My parents are ranchers, and so it's really out in the prairie.

2:19
Chad Lauber: Interesting. And in high school, did you participate in the high school music programs? Or--

2:24
Joan Wildman: There really wasn't much of a high school music program. It was a Catholic high school, so I did participate in the choir, but there wasn't any band or orchestra or anything like that. So there was very little music going on.

2:39
Chad Lauber: So it was a private school. I see. And so after high school, then you were off to college. I take it? 

2:47
Joan Wildman: Yes.

2:47
Chad Lauber: And where?

2:48
Joan Wildman: I went to a boarding school. I was very young. I started college when I was 16, so my parents refused to let me go to a university. So I went to this school called Mount St. Scholastica in Atchison, Kansas, for a few years, till I got a little older and became a music major at that time.

3:08
Chad Lauber: At Mount-?

3:09
Joan Wildman: Yes.

3:14
Chad Lauber: Interesting. So then you finished your undergrad at what point--?

3:18
Joan Wildman: Well, I ended I ended up at another school to finish my bachelor's and master's degrees, and that was at MacPhail School of Music, which is part of the University of Minnesota.

3:31
Chad Lauber: In Minneapolis.

3:31
Joan Wildman: Yes. And before that, I had spent a year in Boston working at Berklee School of Music. 

3:38
Chad Lauber: And who did you study with there? Anybody important, or--?

3:40
Joan Wildman: No, not anybody really important, just some people who were there.

3:43
Chad Lauber: Was it influential on your development to be in Boston?

3:48
Joan Wildman: Yeah, it was. It was probably just as influential as anywhere else, maybe even the prairie. I mean, everything seems to be influential to some degree. It's depending on what you want to take with you later on.

4:03
Chad Lauber: And what was happening--at this point, you were interested in jazz, and that was what you were pursuing?

4:09
Joan Wildman: Jazz and classical music. I was very interested in Beethoven as well. And one of the reasons why I decided to leave Berklee was because I really missed Beethoven at that time, and I wasn't able to--it was very difficult in those days to do both classical and jazz piano, especially for for young women. You really had to--

4:29
Chad Lauber: This is in the early 60s?

4:30
Joan Wildman: Late 50s. Well, I was very young, you know, when I started out, so I was a little bit younger than the people around me. And so you really--you really either had to do one or the other, it seemed.

4:43
Chad Lauber: But was it difficult at that time to even find--I mean, Berklee had a Jazz Studies program. Was it difficult to find a Jazz Studies program?

4:51
Joan Wildman: There were only two in the country at that time. There was one in Los Angeles, and then there was Berklee. And Berklee at that time was one building, one little old brick building. 

5:02
Chad Lauber: Was it on Mass Ave, still?

5:03
Joan Wildman: It was on Boylston Street, but it was--it was down from the new complex of buildings. It was just a little bitty place. I was rather disappointed, I must say, when I first saw it, but that's about the way things were then. There was just not all that much for school jazz. It still belonged down the street.

5:23
Chad Lauber: And so then you went back to Minnesota.

5:27
Joan Wildman: Yes, went to Minnesota, got a bachelor's, got married, got a Master's, had four children, not necessarily in that order.

5:35
Chad Lauber: Did you get then--you got your DMA out in [?]--or in Oregon.

5:38
Joan Wildman: University of Oregon, yes.

5:39
Chad Lauber: And that was in music theory.

5:42
Joan Wildman: It was piano and theory.

5:47
Chad Lauber: So performance. And at that point you were still doing the classical and the--?

5:53
Joan Wildman: Yes, and then it was a little easier. I became very interested in new music, and that was also another way I could compromise, because there was a lot of the things that I could improvise, doing Cage and things like that. Maybe not improvise, but there were chance elements that were involved, and there was a lot of new music that also did use improvisation. And then I did work my way--or part of our way, all of our ways--my husband's and my way through school by playing in nightclubs all this while too.

6:23
Chad Lauber: Wow. And what--the University of Oregon, is that in--what city is that?

6:27
Joan Wildman: That's in Eugene.

6:28
Chad Lauber: Okay. And then after that, where did you get your first job, then, after you had your DMA?

6:36
Joan Wildman: Well, after I got my--I got my first college teaching job when I was just 23, and that was still in Minnesota, but after I--I first taught, actually, at Central Michigan University, part-time for six years, and then I went out to the University of Maine, and that was after my DMA. That was my first job. Well, wait a minute, no, I didn't even have my DMA when I went out to Maine. I got my first job after my DMA here.

7:06
Chad Lauber: Oh. Interesting. So then you came here in 1977, and there was no--there was a Jazz Studies program at that time or not?

7:15
Joan Wildman: Not a major. There were some courses.

7:18
Chad Lauber: Okay, so what are your reflections, then, on the Jazz Studies major and how it's evolved and changed over the last--what is this? Almost 17 years?

7:27
Joan Wildman: About that, almost. About 15 or 16 or something like that.

7:30
Chad Lauber: Yeah, and you wrote the curriculum, right? 

7:31
Joan Wildman: Yes. The way of doing that was simply: I looked to see what other colleges and universities were doing around the country. And it seems that every school has some sort of emphasis. And I remembered my experience at Berklee long ago, in which there was really very little--there was no chance to play Beethoven, for example, which I mentioned earlier. And it seemed very important in our curriculum, both for the benefit of the students and also for the benefit of the school, because we don't have a lot of faculty to teach jazz studies, but mostly for the student--that the student has a chance to really explore many different kinds of music. So we have requirements that say that you have to have a good classical background as well as jazz background, because in this day, one must really be able to play all sorts of music in order to be a good improviser.

8:23
Chad Lauber: That's certainly true. And so what were your--I guess that was your concerns, and when you were writing the curriculum, was to have a well rounded program, more than, you know--?

8:33
Joan Wildman: Yes, I think so. And we do have one. That's one of the strengths of our school, that we really encourage that. And a lot of schools still kind of just go over to the edge and have only Jazz Studies courses without any reference to anything else.

8:51
Chad Lauber: One or the other.

8:52
Joan Wildman: Yes, and not even any reference to the possibilities that we have here with some of the ethnomusic courses and things of that sort. They're just very, I think, rather narrow in their focus.

9:03
Chad Lauber: So one of the main--you teach jazz improv, and also freshman theory, but now that's going--next year, you're only going to be dealing with Jazz Studies. 

9:13
Joan Wildman: I'll be just still probably doing the same thing next year. Probably shortly after that, though, I'll be working more with the Jazz Ensemble as well as improvisation, plus the digital course for MIDI people and jazz keyboard.

9:29
Chad Lauber: I see, and so I guess it would be interesting if you could, you know, describe how you teach like a normal improv class. When you're teaching improvisation, how is it that you go about teaching it?

9:42
Joan Wildman: Well, the first thing is to look at people who are in that class as individuals and see what they really need. Because one of my very important goals is to--by the time the course is over, to have each person in that class have a better sense of their own identity as a player. And one of the very definite goals in improvisation, in the first place, for jazz, is to bring out that individuality, so that each person sounds better like himself or herself. And so when I go into a class, I try to take that into account as much as possible, and so every class is very different depending on the makeup of the class. But mostly I go from that basic goal, to try to bring out everyone's individuality in their playing, to then thinking in terms of, well, different combinations of people, what they can do very well together and combining people's knowledge, maybe with classical music, with another person's knowledge of jazz, and then having the students really interact with each other. And I think the class's--one of the class's biggest strengths is this interaction between the students. They play in small groups and learn from each other.

10:54
Chad Lauber: Yeah, okay, that sounds nice. Um, so this--I don't know exactly how to say this, um, without just being--without just saying it blatantly, so I guess I'm gonna have to just, you know, bring up the issue of sexism in the academy and in the music world in general. And you being a woman and coming up in a time that was definitely, decidedly different than now, the 1950s, where gender roles were way more defined and probably way more apparent. I was just wondering if you could reflect a little bit on sexism and the music world and how that relates to academia.

11:32
Joan Wildman: Well, in the 50s, late 50s, it was blatant sexism, except nobody really seemed to notice. And today, people notice blatant sexism, but they don't really notice the subtle forms of sexism. And even the people who sometimes are involved in it directly are not aware that they're being sexist or that the attitudes that they're espousing are sexist. There's some really, very well-meaning people out there who--both men and women, I think--who are quite sexist and don't even know it. When I was first coming up, though, as a performer, it was taken for granted that if you went out to play a gig--like I would go out with my husband to play a gig, but it wasn't usually acceptable for men to hire somebody's wife on a gig, somebody else's wife on a gig, unless the husband were there too. So there were all sorts of things like that, and I remember doing some performances, in fact, in this little college where I taught, going on tour with a whole band, and my husband wasn't there, and it was like, I didn't know for sure if I should do it or not, because it seemed inappropriate. I did it anyway, you know? But yeah, that was just the way things were. And then gradually, as time went on, it got a little bit better. But nonetheless, if you look back in the jazz world, women who, throughout the history of it, even--well, singers, even, but definitely instrumentalists--women always were married or had a boyfriend in the band.

13:20
Chad Lauber: Yeah, and you hardly ever--you don't see too much documentation of it. 

13:23
Joan Wildman: No. Taken for granted. It was all taken for granted in those days. So--and even now, I think it's very interesting that a lot of the women that I've had in the class in the last--even in the last 10 years--a lot of these women are not out there playing because they get asked to play by some guy. They usually have their own groups, but they're very seldom out there just as a side person, you know, unless there's a boyfriend or something like that, because people--it still kind of exists. But it's, you know, at a much more doable level than it was at one point.

14:04
Chad Lauber: Right, so some progress has been made. 

14:06
Joan Wildman: Yes, most definitely. Quite a lot of progress.

14:08
Chad Lauber: --a lot of work maybe still to do. And it's kind of--in a sense, I mean, the history of jazz and the academy is also kind of related to, you know, that kind of exclusion or kind of codes of behavior that was a long time in coming, being able to be established academically. Can you talk a little bit about the long road that has taken jazz to get to the academy?

14:38
Joan Wildman: Well, I think Carnegie Hall had something to do with that too, which was sort of a bridge-- 

14:44
Chad Lauber: You mean the Benny Goodman performance?

14:45
Joan Wildman: Yeah, those kind of things. When people in the academy heard that Carnegie Hall was used for something other than classical music, it maybe gave it a little bit more prestige. So sometimes you would have festivals coming. Jazz at the Philharmonic, for example, in the 50s and 60s, early 60s, were kinds of ways--those kinds of performances were held in very nice halls, whereas jazz earlier had been associated only with night clubs and not very nice places. So that was something that changed things around a little bit. Gradually, there were some classical performers, very few, but some who started to think that maybe they could improvise a little bit, or include an improvisation in their performance. And just little by little, people would incorporate some jazz in their performances. It wasn't, though, until the Big Band era really started to die after World War Two that there wasn't any place for it to go anymore. And people then decided, "Well, we must preserve this," because there was a lot of good music out there that people really liked. So I think it started in academia as sort of a museum piece, in a sense, as an act of preservation, rather than it than a live, burgeoning kind of music.

16:08
Chad Lauber: So they just wanted to preserve the Big Band sound. And so then you establish big--or bands--? Wow, very interesting.

16:13
Joan Wildman: Yeah, I think so. Now this is my own theory, but I believe that to be the case. I don't think it was necessarily brought in because of its own sake, as far as where it could go, but only because of where it had been.

16:25
Chad Lauber: But it wasn't really until the 1970s that it became probably common practice to have--to be able to go to music school and to study jazz. 

16:35
Joan Wildman: Right. And in all the little high schools, and everybody had their stage bands, so called.

16:38
Chad Lauber: And so that really did happen in the 70s. There wasn't so much in the 60s that there was the case?

16:42
Joan Wildman: I think it really took--I think it took a good 20 years for that to really get established well.

16:49
Chad Lauber: So you're looking out for the period--

16:51
Joan Wildman: From 1950 to about 1970. It look that long. No, it was more like--by 1970 it was pretty well there.

17:00
Chad Lauber: Okay, I'd like to move on to something a little bit different, I guess. Well, you're very active in the community, and I was wondering what you think about the relationship of the University to the community in general.

17:16
Joan Wildman: Well, I think the whole town-and-gown problem that's been part of academia is just one of the most unfortunate things about higher education, and I feel that, especially in my own field, with jazz improvisation, but not even especially--but nonetheless, that if I'm going to try to teach that subject matter, that jazz improvisation subject matter, I first have to provide an environment for my students around which they can develop their, you know, talents. So that means that they have to be able to go out in the community and hear jazz, and they have to be able to go out and play in the community. And it is not enough just to keep the music inside the humanities building. In this particular field, especially, there's just not enough going on in the humanities building. Jazz, they have to have the community involvement of older musicians who are in the community, and they have to be able to play right alongside of them and learn just as quickly as they can that way. And I think it's really a very, very bad mistake for people not to take the community into account, both from the standpoint of their students learning more about what they're doing, but also from the idea of just having a better relationship with those people in the community, the older people.

18:37
Chad Lauber: And was this kind of the idea for--that led to the establishment of the Madison Music Collective? Or--you established that? Or--

18:45
Joan Wildman: Yes, that was my thing. I didn't do it because of my class at that time, but I did do it because of the musicians in the area, in the community. But it wasn't a specific thing related to my class, but it certainly developed that way, because, in fact, our improv class will be playing at a Madison Music Collective venue in a few weeks. And that, again, is just part of getting the musicians in the community organized and relating to, trying to make a better environment. And in it all--we have a lot of members from the School of Music involved in the collective, as well as most of the musicians around town.

19:28
Chad Lauber: So you mentioned a venue in Madison. Venue seems to be--it's an issue in a way. I mean, this always seems to be shifting. It seems to be a bit of a problem to find like a consistent venue that's established and that people know about and are willing to come and see it. What do you think about--I mean, why is there this problem with getting people out and finding places that are willing to accept new music?

19:59
Joan Wildman: Oh, there are a number of reasons, just a number of reasons. I mean, I could just go on and on about that. First of all, though, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing that venues change. There's always some--an entrepreneur out there who wants to start up a little restaurant or something and have music. State Street is notorious for all the new businesses and things that have gone on there. But I think that when one closes, then another one will open. So we've been very lucky in that regard. Some of the reasons why they close have to do with some of the people who start up a business are not very good business people. And sometimes musicians are at fault. Sometimes, when people have musicians play, the musicians don't play very good music, and so people just don't want to be there. And other times, other reasons. Some people have said the drinking age being 21 rather than 18 or whatever has had something to do with younger people going out. So they get in the habit of not really going out to hear music. And so perhaps that is a point. Also just the idea of some people don't have very much money to go out to hear music. And there are a lot of other, you know, other little things too. The crime thing has something to do with it, perhaps. There's also the idea of so much home entertainment going on now. People don't go out to very many things at all.

21:28
Chad Lauber: Right. I mean, I sometimes think about how, you know, 100 years ago, there was just no option. If you wanted to hear music, you had to hear it live. There was no such thing. Now it's all--it's piped in. The--it kind of like brings up this next point that I wanted to touch on, and that's: at this time I feel that music is being judged more by its entertainment value than by its artistic value. And so when you run into wanting to experiment or explore tonally or what--you know, just to experiment with music, there's really not so much a place for that, because it's more equal to, you know, how well it entertains a populace as to, you know, how experimental or how artistically sound the music is. What do you think about that?

22:19
Joan Wildman: Well, that's--and one of the--again, one of the reasons for the Madison Music Collective. And we do have a place where we have concerts every Saturday night, Cafe Europa, right now, in which--and we've had that place now for about a year and a half, with these weekly concerts. And there's--it's a coffee house, so people drink coffee and listen, and there's no--there's very good--it's a very good room as far as sound. People experiment with really--dancers, poets, painters, you name it, in that room, and people really listen. And so there are places that one can get or develop in which it's not really--it's good. I mean, it's supposed to be good, but good doesn't necessarily mean, you know, you can't do a whole lot of experimentation at the same time. And it also can be entertaining, too, if you, you know, if you watch it. So I think that we do try to get it to be good music and to be also entertaining, and try for excellence at all times. And if there's experimentation going on at same time, so be it. Crowds can usually tell if you care very much about the music you're about to play, even before you play. Now, there's something about the manner of the musician getting ready to play and they get on the stand that really can get you interested. And there are ways, even if you have a rowdy crowd or something like that, to get--you can get that crowd. You can get that crowd, usually, every time. Just-- well, 98% of the time, you can get the crowd on your side and starting to listen.

23:52
Chad Lauber: Well, that's interesting. Um, I'd like to talk a little bit about your disc "Inside Out," and that was produced in 92, correct? And you did the production work all yourself.

24:01
Joan Wildman: Well, I was--yeah, I guess you would say that. I--well, I had the engineer. I was not the engineer or anything like that, but I was the person who decided what we're going to play and and the arrangements and led the trio and wrote the music and played on everything. But Marv Nonn was one of our engineers where we did the music at the live studio. Then also we did part of the takes at a live concert, where we played at a dance concert. And so we had some other people. Tom Blain was one of the people there who did the engineering for that particular show.

24:43
Chad Lauber: So on this disc, I mean--I listened to it, and some of it--"Inside Out" kind of summarizes, or at least for me, it summarized--well, kind of a--you had this balance between playing inside and then playing out. And it really worked, really well. And I was wondering, how did you approach, compositionally or performance-wise, how did you approach the project in order to get--or is this just something that happens in your music in general, or--to get this balance between--? Because if you're out all the time, you know that's one thing, and if you're in all the time, there's another thing, but you have this nice dichotomy. I was was wondering--

25:20
Joan Wildman: Well, I think that I am very conscious and concerned about the idea of being--of having people be--of having music being accessible to people. So I will want to have a point of reference and not go out and not come back. The point of reference, I think, is important. There are different kinds of points of references in that particular CD. Some of the points of references are not very far from where it ends up going. And then other times it's quite some distance between where the music really ends up going. The idea of even on the piano, the way I see a piano is just not the 88 keys, but it's also the inside of the piano, the strings of the piano. So I suppose in one sense, you could even take the basic instrument I play as both an inside and an outside kind of way of looking at that instrument and dealing with it. And the way I construct sounds when I'm programming a synthesizer is very similar to that. I very seldom actually will take a--will try to strive for or just deal with an acoustic-sounding instrument. I'd rather try to play the acoustic instrument like at the piano, and then try to program sounds that remind me of what might be the sounds inside that piano that I can't get inside the piano myself. And so there's that further idea of what is inside. Then, when I'm improvising as well, I try to figure out what is really inside the very heart of the music, and try to play my way out. So it's like, even the concept of improvisation is more often inside to out, rather than outside, from the outside of the surface of the music, trying to find my way out.

27:02
Chad Lauber: So just extending up on a particular--like, if you're in G, you just keep on going out, out, out, out...

27:07
Joan Wiman: Yeah, and then providing a point of reference from time to time when I feel it's needed. You know, to G again.

27:12
Chad Lauber: Right, interesting. So, um, does this tie into--how do you approach composition, then, when you're actually writing a piece?

27:22
Joan Wildman: Well, basically the same way. I would want to have the point of reference again if I'm writing the notes down. My idea of composition, depending on who I'm writing for--we just did a thing with some dancers in Milwaukee, in which that particular kind of composition had to be done differently than what I would do if I were doing a concert with just my trio, but that had to be done with doing a DAT tape of some sequence material, and then having us improvise over that, and the dancers then had some point of--that was their point of reference, you see. And then we could play our parts, meaning my trio could play our parts, in an improvised setting over some specific melodies, but improvising over that. That could be done differently each time, and yet the dancers still had their point of reference. So it depends, it depends on the context by which I'm working.

28:19
Chad Lauber: So it's really a situational thing.

28:21
Joan Wildman: It really is, because every composition is different, and so I would always want to look at it new and fresh each time.

28:28
Chad Lauber: Very interesting. And just kind of an ending--I was wondering--two last points, really, and the first one being: it seems that there's a new classicism with people, Wynton Marsalis, and that's come up in the 80s. And I was wondering, what do you think about this? Because, I mean, this is really different than what was happening with Miles Davis in the 70s, Ornette Coleman, or John Coltrane in the free jazz movement. And now it seems that everything's been reined in, and we were back in--

29:02
Joan Wildman: Well, it's just part of this new conservatism. And I just remember hearing about this time, and I can't remember which jazz festival--it somehow or other makes me think of Montreal, but I'm not sure--when Miles Davis was still alive and he was playing with his group, and Wynton Marsalis came on stage, just walked on, uninvited on stage, and tried to start playing with Miles. and Miles's reaction was simply to walk off the stage. Most people throughout the history of jazz have tried to let the music continue and tried to push it further, and tried to explore and always find out what else is there. And as soon as the people start looking back and trying to recreate what happened a long time ago, their music has that image of almost looking at it through a film or gauze or something else. It's not quite as fresh-sounding as it was when it was done the first time. And it certainly hit--certainly lacks the vigor that it had the first time, and the explosiveness. So although it's much more--what's the word--comfortable, I suppose I should say, to a lot of people to say that they now like jazz because it's something they can predict what will happen next, it's just that kind of person that I would just assume would[n't]? even listen to jazz. I would think that most jazz listeners throughout history have been those people who wanted to see what else could happen. And so there's been a lot of the vigor taken out of it by these specific people, but it will go away. It will go away.

30:51
Chad Lauber: Yeah, I think--I mean, then you still have people like the Art Ensemble of Chicago. 

30:55
Joan Wildman: Yes. There's still a lot of people doing some good stuff.

30:57
Chad Lauber: Right. And, um--well, and I guess ending, I guess this is appropriate for the end, but: you're very much into electronic music and using computers and synthesizers to enhance your music. And that was--I was just wondering what do you--what is your philosophy about this? And how do you approach using electronics in, you know, in music now, especially when it's taking off at such an amazing rate? Seems a little hard to control, almost.

31:29
Joan Wildman: It is hard to control, and it's hard to keep the human element in there, or make the music sound as though it is created by a human and not just an electronic accident. But you can do it. And it is difficult to do, though, but it's very invigorating and very much fun. And there are so many sounds that we haven't heard yet, and I just think they're there, just waiting. And until we find more of them, they're just going to be waiting. And there doesn't seem to be any sense in the world, or any reason the world, for those sounds to be out there and people not try to find out what they are.

32:07
Chad Lauber: Yeah. It's interesting when you talk about--because the computer or the synthesizer, [?] synthesizers are basically computers. So, I mean, they allow--it's almost like you're taking this, like, cyber sound, and bringing it into reality, into our entire tangible reality. And I find it fairly interesting. You actually construct sounds, with the synthesizers? You have your own lexicon, then, of sounds that you've made?

32:33
Joan Wildman: I make different ones every gig. Every time, yeah. I always make--because sound is just like a mouthpiece or a reed for a saxophone player, I think. You have to have, depending on what kind of arrangement you're going to use with a piece that day, or even how you feel that day. Inevitably, for every performance I do, I program, almost always, at least half the sounds over again.

32:56
Chad Lauber: Wow. And so where do you take them from? Do you take the actual sound wave and mess directly with that, or do you sample sounds?

33:04
Joan Wildmam: Sometimes. Well, I have three different sources. I have a sampler, which I do that with, and then I have a sample player, which I can program to deal with the sound that's there in different ways. And then I have a DX7, old DX7 keyboard, which still is great for different harmonics and things that I could program to go with the other sounds. And many times I'll play all three of these sound sources simultaneously so that you'll hear this one sound, but it's a composite sound, you know, with different envelopes and things of that sort. 

33:35
Chad Lauber: Wow. Very interesting. 

33:36
Joan Wildman: It's very much fun. It really is.

33:38
Chad Lauber: Yeah. Well, I guess that's about all that I had, and I just wanted to wrap it up and thank you very much.

33:43
Joan Wildman: Thank you for asking me. Bye-bye.